מענדעלע

a) To: Itsik Shteyn re: _khoyzik_ Vos iz den shayekh der rang fun Mikhl Herzog? Oyb er iz zikh toye, iz er zikh toye, afile ven er iz der keyser aleyn.

Tsum badoyern, vel ikh ersht in Yuni, az ikh vel zikh umkern aheym fun vayte mekoymes, aleyn kenen vider araynkukn in "Even-Shoshan'. Biz demolt, vel ikh farshporn tsu firn dem vikuekh vayter.

b) Itsik Goldenberg re: _talis-taleysim_

If you were to read through Yehoyesh-Spivak's _Hebreizmen in Yidish_, a dictionary of the Hebrew and Aramaic words in Yiddish, you would find NUMEROUS discrepancies between the Hebrew and Yiddish form and gender of Semitic-origin nouns. In general, Hebrew grammatical morphemes of gender, person, number my be neutralized in Yiddish. How about constructions like

_DER even-tov_ (_even_ is feminine in Hebrew); _ZAYNE oves-ovosEYNU_? Weird, no? Or _di bobe olEVasholem_ (even though it be written _olEHO hasholem_)? (I believe that the use of the "correct" _oleho hasholem_ in modern Yiddish is a modern result of literacy in Ivrit.)

Thus, Ivrit _talit-talitot_ is probably a modern formation. The historically "correct" plural is, if I can recall, _taluyot_. In any event Yiddish: _der talis/taleysim_. And the Yiddish plural of _shakhris_? You guessed it, right? SHAKHREYSIM!

Mikhl Herzog

The canonical form is feminine. Hebrew words ending in yood-tav are generally feminine, although exceptions exist. I believe most Hebrew dictionaries will show 'talis/talit' as feminine.

Interestingly, the Hebrew Dictionary I have shows plurals in both forms. I find 'talesim,' 'talitot,' and also 'taliyot.'

It is not clear to me how the masculine plural came to be, but I can venture a guess. Until modern times, all prayer ritual was controlled, performed and led by the men of the community. Women participated at a distance, but almost as 'observers' from the 'ezrat nashim.' It seems natural that the ritual 'gear' of the men should be thought of as masculine as well, regardless of grammatical niceties.

B'Shalom Yankev Berger

In response to Itzik Goldenberg, if you check any Hebrew dictionary, it will tell you that tallit is feminine. It is common for Hebrew words ending in "it" to be feminine with a plural ending "itot". Why in Yiddish it is masculine, I don't know. Perhaps it's poetic license. I just naturally use "taleysim" when using Yiddish, and "tallitot" when using Hebrew.

Morrie Feller

Le-Mayse this is true, but not, perhaps, for the reason you might think. Orthodox Jews are, generally, much more Yiddish oriented than non-Orthodox (who use Hebrew).

Tallis in Yiddish is masculine (pl. tallesim). Tallis in Hebrew is feminine (pl. tallisos---or tallit, tallitot in sefardit). Maybe our linguists can confirm or refute this, but my impression is that feminine Hebrew words that are fully borrowed into Yiddish (as opposed to "quoted" as a Hebrew word) often become masculine.

Kol tuv Elisheva Schwartz

khosheve mendelianer,

in mendele 09.077 fregt men zikh nokh vos iz rikhtig : talis- taleysim oder talit -talitot? shtelt zikh aroys, beyde zenen rikhtig: talis-taleysim, hagam es kumt fun ivrit iz oyf yiddish; beshas talittalitot iz oyf ivrit, un ivrit anerkent oykh di form talitim far plural.

arthur abramson vil visen fun vanen dos vort"kesselgrub"nemt zikh un vos es badayt. harkavi (dovid katz's oyflage fun 1988 sayt 464) taytsht kesselgrub = whirlpool, un shapiro in zayn rusish-yidishn verterbukh taytsht "vodovorot" = vaservirbl.

Kumt farshteyt zikh fun daytshn"kesselgraben"mit dem selbigen badayt. ale mendelianer - a freylekhn pesakh,

itsik shteyn

In response to the query by Itsik Shaynhoyt, the words and music to "hob ikh mir a mantl" appear (pp. 168-69) in "lomir kinder zingen," (Let's Sing a Yiddish Song), Kinderbuch Publications, 1133 Broadway, NY, NY 10010. (BTW, Simms Taback, whose book "Joseph Had a Little Overcoat" was this year's winner of the prestigious Caldecott Medal, learned the song in Shule No. 1 of the Jewish Peoples Fraternal Order in The Bronx and at Camp Kinderland.)

And while Itsik Goldenberg puzzles over the gender switch between the Yiddish taleysim and the Hebrew talitot, he might ponder, too, how shabes became masculine in Yiddish (der shabes, di shabosim), while it is feminine in Hebrew (shabatot).

Hershl Hartman

Gender of Yiddish nouns and its dialectal variations is a very interesting topic. International words represent a good set to study this problem, in part because there is no etymological influence on the gender.

I looked up the gender of several Yiddish internationalisms in three dictionaries: U.Weinreich. Modern English-Yiddish, Yiddish-English dictionary. New York: YIVO, 1968. M.A.Shapiro, I.G.Spivak, M.Ya.Shul'man. Russko-evreiskii (idish) slovar'. Moskva : Russkii iazyk, 1984 M.Tsanin. Fuler Yidish Hebreyisher verterbukh. Tel Aviv: H. Leyvik farlag, 1982. For convenience I'll call them American Yiddish (AY), Israeli Yiddish (IY), and Russian Yiddish (RY) respectively, although the differences in these dictionaries may be influenced not only by geographic variations.

The gender of most international words is the same in AY, IY, and RY, as well as in German (Ge), Russian (Ru), Hebrew (He), and French (Fr). (In most cases the gender in Russian is the same as in other Slavic languages). There are several thousand of such words, e.g., _biologie_ (f.), _balerine_ (f.), _balet_ (m.), _brigade_ (f.), etc. However, in some cases the gender varies, as shown in the table:

AY IY RY Ge Ru Fr flanel m m m m f f kapsul/e n n f f f f katarakt/e m m f m f f komet/e m m f m f f kvarts n m m m m m lomp m m m f f f margarin m m m f m f medal m m m/f f f f model m m f n f m piramid/e m f f f f f planet/e m m f m f f raket/e m f f f f f taksi m f m/f n n m tsitadel m m f f f f travme f f f n f m vaktsin/e m m f - f m

I found two Yiddish words that consistently (in AY, IY, and RY) defy gender in Ge, Ru, and Fr. _Lomp_ and _medal_ feel manly in Yiddish (and in Yiddish only). In cases where Ge and Ru disagree, Yiddish may follow either Ge (_flanel_), or Ru (_margarin_, _travme_).

An interesting category is comprised of words that end with -e/-a (Ge/Ru). Some of their Yiddish cousins lose the final vowel in AY and IY, but not in RY. In these cases we have pairs with different gender (_planet_ m / _planete_ f). Interestingly, the words that have final -e in Ge (_rakete_, _piramide_) don't have it in AY (perhaps under the English influence), therefore these words are masculine in AY, and feminine in IY, RY, Ge, Ru, and Fr.

Word _tsitadel_ is feminine in Ge, Ru, Fr, and RY. It changes gender in AY and IY. Similarly constructed _karusel_ is f in AY, IY, and RY, but _akvarel_ is f in AY and RY, and m in IY.

_Taksi_ is f in IY, although it is m or n in other languages, including He. _Kvarts_ is n in AY and m everywhere else. The list can go on.

What do the polymorphisms in the three mentioned Yiddish dictionaries reflect? Actual differences in word usage in the US, Israel and Soviet Union? Perceptions of their authors? Something else? Can a coterritorial language without grammatical genders (English) influence gender assignment in Yiddish? Inquiring minds want to know.

Iosif Vaisman

In mendele #09.082 rufn zikh up f. mikhael shimshoni un f.paul glasser oyf der etimology fun vort"khoyzek"un freygn up mayn taytsh az khoyzek kumt fun ivrit fun vorzl khazok=zayn shtark. f.shimshoni git tsu az ikh hob gebrakht "strong evidence" oyf mayn teze, nor im farfirt even shoshan's bamerkung oyf dem oysdruk "maasey khoyzek -shaul meyiddish", loyt mayn hasoge : nit di verter aleyn maasey khoyzek zaynen oysgeborgt fun yiddish, nor seyer zin=oplakhn. un dos nitzn fun a bagrif in zin fun heypekh (keygenteyl) bagegn mir oft in oyslayen verter fun ivrit far yiddish un farkert, vi, lemoshl, fun"beli ayn hora" hobn mir in yiddish"a gut oyg", azoy iz fun shtark zayn (khozek yad) gevorn zayn in a lage fun lekherlikh=maasey khoyzek.

f. glasser hot inganzn nit gefunen in even shoshan di pozitsie"maasey khoyzek', oyf velkher ikh hob zikh geshtitst. gib ikh si on: avraham even-shoshan, in dray bender, oyflage kiriat seyfer, yerushalayim, tash lamed hey(1974-1975), band 1, sayt 380. emes, harkavi shraybt take az "khoyzek hot NISHT kayn shaykhes mit dem hebreishn khazok", ober er untershtraykht"IN BADAYTUNG", vayl, vi mir hobn gezen, iz di badaytung fun khoyzek dos kegnteyl fun khazok.

Ikh mus zugebn, az ikh bin nit kayn etimolog, filolog oder linguist, ikh hob ayngezoygn yiddish mit mayn mame's milkh un bin gegangn in a kheyder, un keyner vet mir nit aynreydn az"seykhel hayoshor"iz gekumen fun yiddish in ivrit un nit farkert.

zayt ale gesund, itsik shteyn

In reply to Martin Green's notes about a Yiddish Haggadah, and a third seder, in the early forties a third seder was held annually in Carnegie Hall in NYC.

This was organized by the Zionist groups, filled the hall, and had many noted speakers. I can remember- I was in my teens and early twenties thenhearing Moshe Chertok (who was later Moshe Sharret, Israeli Foreign Minister), and Chaim Greenberg speak. Greenberg delivered a wonderful address in English, and despite numerous shouts from the audience to speak in Yiddish, refused, and continued in English. I lost track of the third seders in later years, and don't know if they still continue, in NY or here in Los Angeles. If any one knows, I would like to hear about it. A hartsiken Dank,

Al (Avrum) Miller